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georgew
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Posted: Jan 19, 2010 Post Subject: Pigeon Point Run
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| Why is the Pigeon point run on the Trintiy red lined and its only 4K plus. That run is good to go way up in the 10K cfs range.
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chris
Site Admin
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| Posted: Jan 19, 2010 |
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The short answer is that 4000 cfs is the upper limit that Holbek and Stanley give in the table of interesting flows in their guidebook. But these things are very subjective as I expect you know.
Interestingly, American Whitewater gives the upper limit as 40000 cfs, but I'm guessing that's a misprint. I'm basing this partly on the belief that most paddlers would consider 40,000 cfs to be "very high indeed, hold on tight". Assuming AW added an extra zero by mistake, then they too give the range as 500 to 4,000 cfs, same as H&S. CA Creeks gives the upper limit for kayaks to be 4000 cfs too, though A Wet State says it's 7000 cfs. So assuming that AW's 40000 cfs is a misprint, the guidebook consensus is 4000 cfs.
Remembering that Dreamflows defines the green range as "fun flow range" NOT "runnable flow range", and taking into account H&S's comments, and reading what Dreamflows has to say bottom of the realtime flow report (first bullet item) and trigger levels page (all of that section), it seems to me reasonable that the greater majority of folks who run Pigeon Point might consider flows over 4000 cfs to be "high".
What do you think? Comments?
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NSDan
Member
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| Posted: Jan 20, 2010Post Subject: 10,000+
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The Pidg is definitely good above 4,000, although at some point it probably should warrant a class IV rating (how about 4 G's?)
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Lou
Member
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| Posted: Jan 21, 2010Post Subject: PP maximum flows
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| I've run the point at approximately 15,000. I've also run into local boaters who claim to have run it upwards of 30G.It's good to go although I would definitely give it a big water class 4- rating. It would be an awfully long swim should you not be able to hit your roll.
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georgew
Member
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| Posted: Jan 22, 2010Post Subject: Big Flows
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| Well I wouldn't give it a class IV rating, But, I would go so far as to say. You better have some class IV skills. Because there are some great reciprocating holes at those higher flows. All are easily missed. But if you go into them. Be prepared for a hell of a ride. Good or Bad would depend on you skill level for big chewy holes. It would not be advisable if you are still prone to swimming. The water moves really fast when you are out of your boat. Quite deceiving actually. Because for the most part. The ride is very smooth on big rollers. Out of your boat however. You end up a long way down river before you get to shore.
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chris
Site Admin
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| Posted: Jan 23, 2010 |
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Thanks for everyone's input, keep it coming. I just wanted to chime in with a reminder to keep the audience in mind - this isn't about whether Pigeon Point at 10k or 30k is runnable, it's about whether the folks who normally paddle it would have a good time at those flows. The locals who have the skills naturally know what the good flows are, you don't need color-codings to help you. Though you could use them to your advantage: green = think about it, red = rush to put-in 
I haven't run Pigeon Point at high flow, but have run Chili Bar to Salmon Falls at 9k and up a few times, and it was surprisingly good to go, actually a real blast. All you had to do was avoid the holes. If you didn't - well, boat recovery after dropping into the hole bottom right of Meatgrinder seemed to typically be somewhere between Maya and First Threat, and the paddlers weren't smiling. And so it is that Chili Bar at 9k is marked red on the Dreamflows reports - absolutely runnable, just not a fun/safe choice for most Chili Barians.
In any case, I don't know what the fun limits for Pigeon Point are, but am happy to increase the upper limit for Pigeon Point to Daniel's suggested upper limit of 7k. Let's see how that plays out, get back to me if you still think the limit should be increased.
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georgew
Member
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| Posted: Jan 23, 2010Post Subject: The Pigeon
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| Just so people understand that even a 7K, its not a beginner run at those levels. Be ready for cold water swims if your a newbie boater. And make sure you go with someone who is willing and competent in rescuing you when you push you limit thresholds. Have fun every one and as always. Stay with your paddle buddy and be safe.
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Lou
Member
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| Posted: Jan 24, 2010Post Subject: maximum flows
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Chris,
I think you've done a good job keeping the discussion in context. Thanks!
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